Simply can't afford to live in NZ

[MotherBear]

But is it a case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer? :-/

Rich steadily getting richer
5:00AM Wednesday April 04, 2007
By Simon Collins

More than half of New Zealand's total net worth is now owned by the richest 10 per cent of the population.

A new survey by Statistics NZ shows that the distribution of wealth has become even more unequal in 2003-04 than in the previous survey in 2001, when the richest 10 per cent owned only 48 per cent of the country's total wealth. They now own 52 per cent.

The richest half of the country owned 93 per cent of the wealth in 2001, and now owns 95 per cent. So the share of the poorest half has dropped from 7 per cent to 5 per cent.

But the two surveys cannot be compared directly. The 2001 survey, a one-off exercise for the Retirement Commission, was based on "economic units" where a couple counted as one unit, whereas the latest survey is the first part of a long-term sampling to be repeated up to 2010 and is based on individuals.

The new survey includes details which the previous one did not, revealing that the richest 1 per cent of individuals own 16 per cent of the country's wealth, and the richest 5 per cent own 38 per cent of the total.

More here .

[Dawn]

QUOTE ?It starts with caring about & respecting money
'Care' and 'respect' are both emotive words, each word can be extreme on a sliding scale of emotion and it's funny how just talking about money seems to have this emotional effect on people. I care enough about money to earn it in a way that I consider important i.e. I do something worthy of the pay I receive, people benefit from me doing what I do and I feel good about the work/pay exchange. I don't care about it in as much as I want to earn more of it or I would live dishonestly to accumulate it or I would kid myself into thinking that having more of it would make me happier. I respect it in as much as I realise that without it none of us are going anywhere. As you explain it's a tool but it's not the most important tool in my tool box. Respect to me is a two way thing and I figure I'll wait a long time (something else I don't like to do) before I get the same respect from money that most people seem to pay it.

QUOTE ?and having a desire to achieve something better for your children. ?That's been my primary motivation just like it was for my parents before me and will hopefully be instilled in our children for their kids and subsequent generations. ?

My every waking moment is driven by desire to achieve something better for my children. Contributing to leaving them and my subsequent generations a world to live in is a good start I feel. Giving them the courage to stand up and be counted, to make a difference when they can, not to turn their face away from something they see going on that they don't agree with, to fight for and with others less able, to uphold and pursue equal rights and a fairer standard of living for all, to have a conscience about the way they live their lives and responsibility for their thoughts and actions and the consequences of them. None of these things costs money. Most of this worlds problems are to do simply with poverty and wealth i.e. the people that have money won't share it with those who don't, too much money is spent on the tools of oppression, war, religion et al. Yeah I want something better for my children - I would wish for them a world where money comes further down the list than honesty, decency, equality and integrity. Fat chance :(

QUOTE ?I think that your complaint isn't against money but against people who do stupid or annoying things with it.

My complaint is that money makes people do, at the very least, stupid and annoying things. It blurs and distorts things, it has a disabling power that can manifest itself in many ways. When one has more than enough money one is not anywhere near as thoughtful about what one spends it on. As I have said before, each penny in each pound or dollar has significance to somebody somewhere and we have a responsibility to everyone each time we choose what to spend it on.

I respect that your motivations and life choices are different to mine Ex-Pat but I know what my complaint is about. :) Thank you for taking the time to try to enlighten me though, it strengthens my resolve. ;)

[KiwiHopeful]

But is it a case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer? :-/

More here .

In the US, the top 10% hold about 70% of wealth, and the bottom half holds about 3%.

One of the interesting things about the widening gap here in the US is the way in which the top 10% is becoming divided, with the 'ultra-rich' pulling away from the 'merely affluent.' There was an article a couple of months ago, in the NY Times I believe, about how many wealthy professionals like doctors and lawyers were being pushed out of civic organizations such as museum boards or school trusteeships because they could not keep pace with the giving of the ultra-rich who were now buying their way on. Ahh ... some people's lives just suck, don't they? ::)

[ExPat]

If you took all the money in the US about 6 trillion dollars and divided it up evenly between every American, 300 million, each American would receive about $20,000.00 USD. Even doubling the 6 trillion to 12 trillion would only increase each person's amount to 40k.

This number may or may not astound you but that is the reality of the situation. How long would 20k last you? What about 40k?

Money seems to find its way into the hands of the best people that can properly manage & utilize it. It doesn't happen by accident and there is no grand conspiracy to "steal" it from the average person.

I said it before and I'll say it again, money is a tool which serves as a unit of exchange between two entities for products or services. Nothing more, nothing less.

If it takes you 6 hours to paint an oil painting which you can subsequently sell for $60 NZD, then the unit of exchange between your labour and "money" is $10 NZD per hour of your labour.

If I earn $600 NZD in 2 hours then the exchange between my labour is $300 NZD per hour of my labour.

Why people feel they or anyone else should be entitled to any portion of my labour (for free) is rather silly and senseless but that partially explains NZ's 40% tax rate.

But to put it into a simpler context. Imagine if a billion dollars ended up in the hands of a person who didn't care about tax laws or how money was earned, spent, managed or invested.

Imagine what society would say, "my goodness, that person has a billion dollars and doesn't care one bit about tax laws or spending the money wisely....shame on her. She really is annoying with her attitude."

or how about, "wow, she had a billion dollars and blew it all on community art; imagine how many poor people could have been fed with all that money"

or how about "wow, she gave all that money to feed the poor and now they've all gained 30 kg but they're still poor because they don't know how to earn a living"

[Dawn]

Ex-Pat, as clear, concise, straightforward and undeniably, unarguably, water-tightly (I know that's not a word but it serves) accurate as your views and opinions seem to you, I would ask you to consider that they may not hold the same absolution with others. When I talk about 'people' I'm not just talking about my immediate community or even the UK, or in your case the US, I'm talking about the people of the world. To me we are all linked, we all have a responsibility for one another. Yeah, I know a lot of you guys already have me down as 'do-gooder', I've already been told, even if I'm not exactly sure what people mean by it, but I fail to realise why people feel they have to pack others away into little labelled boxes and I wonder what makes them feel they have the skills necessary to do this.

It seems to me that there are those who think they know what's best for everyone and there are those who consider that everyone else might know what's best for themselves. Doesn't it strike you as odd that in your great country the majority of those who don't have a share of the wealth don't have white skin and or don't speak with an American accent, it's the same here in the UK and it's the same the world over. Money doesn't end up in the hands of those who are best able to manage and utilise it, it ends up in the hands of those who think they are. What would Mother Theresa or Martin Luther King have done with a billion dollars I wonder?

It's obvious that in your last post you were having a go at me and what you consider my misguided and uneducated folly. If only a billion dollars could be spent on community art the world over, you'd see a difference in a great many things. Art, and art of course is not necessarily a painting on a gallery wall or a sculpture in an exhibition, like money, is a powerful tool that can be used to achieve results with issues that have nothing to do with art. It can teach self-respect, self-confidence, communication skills, teamworking, tolerance and understanding, it raises self-esteem and addresses issues of diversity, identity, individuality, it enables expression, creativity, problem solving, it encourages forward thinking, change and progress as well as documentation, display, performance, memory, timing, feel, evaluation, comparison, contrast, strength, openness and influence. I could go on but I think that my attempts at explanation would fall on deaf ears.

Human beings could sing before they could speak, we banged things to make rhythm and danced to express ourselves and our wants and needs, we learned to extract colour from plants and minerals for the purpose of drawing and painting whether the reason was communication, documentation or just pure pleasure. People are creative, it's inate, it's instinctive and it's important. To lose it or to ignore it is to switch oneself off from massive potential. Art engages and propels people, it can switch people back on and they can then go on to 'feed themselves' or 'earn themselves a living', they can also go on to have more colourful, enriched and fulfilled lives even if they don't manage to earn ?100k salary.

You're probably gonna say or at least think, I'm talking crap. You're probably gonna say you can't do any of those things without money. I work with art with people who don't have money everyday, I've seen how it keeps kids out of prison, gets drug addicts clean, strengthens women enough to be able to leave an abusive relationship, helps prisoners to rehabilitate, empowers wheelchair users to dance, stabilises and re-engages the mentally ill................the list is endless but I think you're very probably bored already.

Give me and those like me more money so that we can do more of this and we'll show you the difference that art makes to societies. Then when your precious money isn't so tied up in hospitals, prisons, drug programmes, young offenders institutions, alcohol abuse centres, safe houses for victims of domestic violence and the rest you can spend it on educating people in the importance of equality, justice and humanity.

[MotherBear]

I'll just sneak in here and add these money-related articles and sneak quietly back out again, keeping my head well down. :D

Money the glue that helps bond relationships
5:00AM Thursday April 05, 2007
By Maggie McNaughton

Mother-of-five Helena Joyce says financial security is an important factor in maintaining a healthy marriage.

Commenting on the report that a healthy economy is easing relationship strains, she said: "If things are good economically, then it definitely helps a marriage," the 35-year-old, full-time mother said yesterday.

The findings of the study surprised her. "I know lots of people who are getting divorced ... but maybe people are more educated now and there's more help available to couples such as counsellors if their marriage is in trouble."

She said the biggest strain on young couples was when the children were small and finances were tight.

"If you can make it through that time, you can make it through anything."

More here .

Another story about marriage and your finances.

[ExPat]

Originally Posted by Dawn

It seems to me that there are those who think they know what's best for everyone and there are those who consider that everyone else might know what's best for themselves.

Yes, I'm dealing with such a person right now. Someone who thinks they know what is best for everyone....exactly!

Doesn't it strike you as odd that in your great country the majority of those who don't have a share of the wealth don't have white skin and or don't speak with an American accent, it's the same here in the UK and it's the same the world over.

Last time I checked, China, Japan, Brazil, India, Russia & most of the middle east had the most wealth around the world. I'm not sure if you'd classify most of those people as "white" or not.

Money doesn't end up in the hands of those who are best able to manage and utilise it, it ends up in the hands of those who think they are.

And how do these people achieve this great feat? They hypnotize the rest of the world into giving them money? They break into their homes to steal it? Hadn't read about either of those in the paper these days...

<snip> I could go on but I think that my attempts at explanation would fall on deaf ears.

<snip>l................the list is endless but I think you're very probably bored already.

yes until I read the first line below. It had me literally rolling on the floor laughing....

Give me and those like me more money so that we can do more of this and we'll show you the difference that art makes to societies.

Where exactly is this money supposed to come from and why should it be given to you? It all boils down to a simple equation:

If what you do is of ANY value to society, there WILL be a market for it and you will be compensated for it accordingly. If you aren't getting compensated what you think you deserve, then it is SOLELY because the people around you (i.e. society) places LITTLE or no VALUE to what it is you do.

Perhaps we all should care about "community arts" the way you do and perhaps we would all be "better" for it but the world we live in doesn't seem to value much of it.

Oh well, I'm off to check the US stock market to see how much money I've made today.

Cheers,
ExPat

[selchie]

All right, you two. I doubt either one of you will convince the other of anything. And even if you did, the other won't admit it. You both have valid points, but they're getting lost amongst your sniping. Please agree to disagree, take a breath, and move along.

(Ducking my own head to avoid further seltzer fire)

Thanks for the IRS link, Ex Pat. It looks like I can only deduct my hobby expenses if I actually make money on them (and report said income) (?). Bummer.

[MotherBear]

Selchie's quite right. Good, honest debate and stating your own opinions is what makes the world go round, but the element of mud-slinging is creeping in yet again :018: . Pity Taffy can't fit a mud pool on the forum where we can send members who'd like to 'take it further'. :D

We are all different in our own way which makes us unique and we all have different aspirations in life, but still need to get along with each other. Just take on board what the other person is saying and then discount what bits you don't like or don't agree with. Expat is passionate about his finances and Dawn is similarly disposed towards the greater good of mankind. Each to his/her own and you'll both, no doubt, succeed whichever path you take, so there's no need to clash with each other along the way.

Dawn, take some of your own advice and chill out, you've got enough stress coming your way with immigrating shortly. Expat, go check the stock markets again. You just might get lucky.

And both of you, shake hands on it and agree to disagree. Life's too short.

[Dawn]

[quote=MotherBear;42417]Dawn, take some of your own advice and chill out(/QUOTE]

I'm always chilled out MB! It's living in this draughty tent and wearing these damn sandles that does it!