Read this if you were born before 1986.......

Whew, what a discussion! I was just rereading it all. I suspect that anyone who gets to a 'certain age' (whatever it is) becomes rather nostalgic for the days of their youth. Some of this is due to familiarity with the customs of the time - heck, I spent 20 or more years learning the rules, and 20 years later they've changed. I'm sure you 20- and 30-somethings will experience this before too many decades have passed.

Growing up in the 60s and 70s, I heard a lot of people saying that they wouldn't be like their parents when raising children. I think they were refering to the often severe strictness they experienced, including physical abuse. Unfortunately it appears that many of them did not use an effective and humane alternative to discipline their children. Perhaps many didn't have the time or energy because both parents were pursuing careers. In an effort to limit other people abusing one's children, authority figures were rendered ineffective. The pendulim swings. To me it appears that civility and self-discipline have worsened since my childhood. Friends who have taught at tertiary institutions have reported that student discipline has declined over the years, and that professors have little recourse against unruly students.

People of all ages are less polite, and sometimes it seems like everyone is spoiling for a fight. Personal responsibility and general civility have been forgotten in our mad rush for more freedom and material goods.

We also have a lot more people on this planet, and we tend to live in bigger communities. It's easier to not care about the chap on the street or even your neighbors if they're strangers to you.

Has anyone else read 'Lord of the Flies' ? A lack of discipline easily results in brutish behaviour.

I wouldn't want to get back the bad parts of the 'good old days', but I sure miss good manners and smaller populations. And soda pop without high fructose corn syrup. I can do without TV programs and movies showing gratuitous vomiting.

On the plus side, today we have more and better quality organic/sustainable food available. The air and water quality is better now than in the 50s and early 60s - in the US and Europe, at least. Personal computers are grand, and I love my iPod.

Personal responsibility and general civility have been forgotten in our mad rush for more freedom and material goods.

Agreed.

Has anyone else read 'Lord of the Flies'? A lack of discipline easily results in brutish behaviour.

And the absence of rules and authority figures. [smiley=icon_eek.gif]

I wouldn't want to get back the bad parts of the 'good old days'

I guess that's what I was trying to say. I'd prefer people to be less selfish and materialistic, but I honestly don't believe that we have to go back half a century to acheive this. We can create a better future without having to forego any social and technological progresses that have made our lives more pleasant. 8-)

We also have a lot more people on this planet, and we tend to live in bigger communities. It's easier to not care about the chap on the street or even your neighbors if they're strangers to you.

Yes and no. Before the age of enlightenment (18th century), violence and civil war was rife, and yet, the world's population was very small. I do, however, agree that smaller towns and villages manage to retain a greater level of civility and community spirit, though many unpopulated countries have proven that you don't necessarily need a high population density to have massive problems with civil unrest. ::)

I don't know about anyone else, but part of the reason why I am choosing to emigrate to a country like NZ is because I believe that, by living there, I will be able to experience the benefits of living in the 21st century, without necessarily having to endure the incivility and selfishness endemic in current British society.


Tottefan.

One thing that's really starting to get to me about NZ, other than the huge incidence of children drinking and on drugs is domestic violence . I see it in the news every week, if not every day. I'm sure a lot of it stems, again, from drink and drugs and is rife amongst the Maori and Pacific Islanders, but is not always restricted to them.

I know it's been said that people from poor families drink and take drugs to escape their dire circumstances, but is it not down to these particular vices and the money that's shelled out to pay for them that's partly causing the situation in the first place? Deep in my heart I don't see how a family that can find enough money regularly for drinks, drugs and smokes can be regarded as genuinely poor. Surely this money could be put to better use, at least to put decent food on the table. If you're drunk or stoned out of your mind on drugs, you would not have the inclination to even look for work, let alone hold a job down for any length of time. The boredom that ensues from not having a purpose in life is what, I believe, fuels a lot of this violence.

Regular news reports of domestic violence on the NZ news do not bother me at all. ?If anything, it perhaps demonstrates the low incidence of other serious crimes.

Out of the 565 murders that occured in 1976, many of them were reportedly caused by domestic violence (according to national statistics). ?::) ? Compare that with over 800 murders in recent times, where murder caused by domestic violence has more than halved, but random attacks on the street, especially involving gangs has increased exponentially. ?

I remember reading that Hitler's personality was often attributed to his unhappy childhood, where his father used to regularly beat him and his mother. ?However, psychologists now claim that this kind of domestic abuse was widespread in Europe during the 1930s, so this wouldn't have made him any different from many of his peers. ?[smiley=icon_eek.gif]

It does seem as though the Maori and Pacific Islanders tend to be involved in more domestics in NZ. ?Perhaps it's because of their culture. ?As far as I know, men are still very much head of the household in most non-Western cultures. ?In such cultures, it is more common for men to think that they have complete control over their wives and children, even if that involves using their fists. ?Obviously drink and drugs only exacerbate the situation.

There was an interesting article on 1976 v present day, on the BBC website yesterday.

A drought, a Labour party contemplating a new prime minister, Noel Edmonds on the television... is 2006 the new 1976? Your memories of the long hot summer 30 years ago.

For anyone looking for coincidences, there are some intriguing parallels between 2006 and 1976.

The most immediate is the sunshine blazing away outside the window - and the persistent warnings that southern England could once again be facing serious water shortages.

Will it be another 1976? The so-called Great Drought of that year saw reservoirs dried up and turned into giant cracked mosaics of mud.

No one had heard of global warming then, but the records set that summer have still to be broken. In Dorset, there were 45 days without any rain and for an unbroken stretch of 14 days, southern England clocked up temperatures in excess of 32C.

A Drought Act was passed, a minister was made responsible for handling the water shortage and stand-pipes were set up to provide a rationed supply of water.

This has made a long-lasting impression, with e-mails about 'the smell of mown grass from the school field together with hot melting tarmac' and 'fields of wheat on fire' a plague of ladybirds and stories about being unable to sleep in the stifling heat.

Ellie from London remembers sitting with 'my feet in a bucket of water for hours at a time, eating gherkins and drinking gallons of Coke' (she was pregnant).

When the heatwave broke there was also excitement. 'When the rain finally came, we all ran out into the street, took off our tops and danced - like idiots!' writes Steve from Leigh-on-Sea.

'I was in Swanage when the drought broke, sitting with thousands of others watching Dave Lee Travis (aka the Hairy Cornflake) at the Radio 1 Roadshow. It started to rain and nobody moved - it was really refreshing after so long without rain,' writes Charlie, now living in Australia.

And if there was a cynicism index, that too would have soared since 1976. Lots of your e-mails say that year was a 'real' drought, rather than bad planning and opportunism by water companies. 'The 'drought' is one of our own making,' writes Matthrew Gray in Southport.

That year, like 2006, was also a time of political transition. Labour were in power, but leader Harold Wilson stepped down to be replaced by Jim Callaghan.

The party had won four out of the five previous general elections, but rocky times lay ahead for Callaghan, with deepening economic problems and industrial unrest, culminating in the winter of discontent.

And the Conservatives, in 1976 as in 2006, were reinvigorated by a new leader - Margaret Thatcher, elected as a surprise choice in the previous year.

In retrospect, 1976 came to be seen as the calm before the storm. And many of your e-mails remember this year for long bike rides, a sense of safety and a feeling of simpler times.

It might not just be nostalgia. The New Economics Forum says that 1976 was the best ever year in modern history for people living in Britain - using a calculation based on economic data and quality of life, such as crime rates and pollution. There were 565 murders, for instance, compared with 859 last year.

It's tempting to wonder how 2006, with relatively low unemployment, cheap travel and high levels of consumer spending, will come to be seen in future years.

As well as the parallels, there are big differences with 1976. There were no mobile phones, no personal computers, no internet, only three television channels and barely half the population even had a landline.

Another striking difference for any time traveller would be the huge growth in traffic. In 1976, almost half of households had no car at all. Parking hadn't become an obsession.

And the cars parked in these empty streets were as likely to be outside rented houses, because only about half the population were home-owners.

Post terminated early due to lack of space.

Yes and no. Before the age of enlightenment (18th century), violence and civil war was rife, and yet, the world's population was very small. I do, however, agree that smaller towns and villages manage to retain a greater level of civility and community spirit, though many unpopulated countries have proven that you don't necessarily need a high population density to have massive problems with civil unrest. ::)

Oh, I was writing about person-to person civility, not war and peace among nations and ethnic groups. Limited resources, desire for more, old grudges, new dislikes, etc. still fuel so much strife, just as they did long ago. Where humans are involved, there's likely to be some trouble.

I'm not so certain that drugs and alcohol are always to blame in domestic violence issues, MB. They do contribute, yes, and probably in a big way. But my mother wasn't a substance abuser, but nowadays she'd be called a child abuser. And I've known potheads and heavy (in my eyes) drinkers who are quite gentle and even productive. I think that drugs and alcohol can reduce inhibitions against violence, and thus contribute negatively.

I wonder if the impression that the Polynesians are the major offenders in NZ might be that theirs are the incidences that are reported to the police and the papers. There's likely to be a lot of 'silent' abuse going on, even among the upper economic levels. Women can also be spouse abusers. Men just don't report it as often, because of the shame.

I'm just offering up some thoughts on other possibilities, because the impressions we get from the media, statistics and such are often skewed. I am thinking of many instances I personally know about that go against the standard impressions. But yes, drugs and alcohol, poverty, cultural norms and such do contribute to many social ills.

Oh, I was writing about person-to person civility, not war and peace among nations and ethnic groups. Limited resources, desire for more, old grudges, new dislikes, etc. still fuel so much strife, just as they did long ago. Where humans are involved, there's likely to be some trouble.

I'm not so certain that drugs and alcohol are always to blame in domestic violence issues, MB. They do contribute, yes, and probably in a big way. But my mother wasn't a substance abuser, but nowadays she'd be called a child abuser. And I've known potheads and heavy (in my eyes) drinkers who are quite gentle and even productive. I think that drugs and alcohol can reduce inhibitions against violence, and thus contribute negatively.

I wonder if the impression that the Polynesians are the major offenders in NZ might be that theirs are the incidences that are reported to the police and the papers. There's likely to be a lot of "silent" abuse going on, even among the upper economic levels. Women can also be spouse abusers. Men just don't report it as often, because of the shame.

I'm just offering up some thoughts on other possibilities, because the impressions we get from the media, statistics and such are often skewed. I am thinking of many instances I personally know about that go against the standard impressions. But yes, drugs and alcohol, poverty, cultural norms and such do contribute to many social ills

Yeah, I agree 100% with that. [smiley=icon_biggrin.gif]

I'm not so certain that drugs and alcohol are always to blame in domestic violence issues, MB.

I agree. In Britain recently, there have been a few highly publicised cases of domestic abuse. Drugs and drink weren't the cause of the violence. The most recent case involved a young Muslim women who was murdered by her own family because they were ashamed of her. It has been well documented here that Asian and Muslim cultures generally suffer from much higher rates of domestic abuse. I strongly suspect that the culture, especially if it is old-fashioned and teaches women to be subservient to their husbands, tends to be the main cause.


Tottefan.

The most recent case involved a young Muslim women who was murdered by her own family because they were ashamed of her. It has been well documented here that Asian and Muslim cultures generally suffer from much higher rates of domestic abuse. I strongly suspect that the culture, especially if it is old-fashioned and teaches women to be subservient to their husbands, tends to be the main cause.

Honour killings happen a fair bit in some parts of the Middle East and other Muslim countries where the males of the family can?t handle finding out that their females have been less than chaste in their dealings with the opposite sex. Even a rumour that something may have happened or merely that a woman has been seen in the company of an unrelated male is enough to set them off and it does happen that the female has been murdered even though she was actually innocent and purely the victim of ill-founded gossip. The fact that people are talking about her in that way sparks off a dreadful rage in the men that has to be satisfied by killing her, therefore wiping out the so-called shame. The practice of honour killings is slowly being stamped out, but in many areas old habits die hard.

In some countries we?ve been in, men aren?t allowed to touch unrelated women in any way e.g. tapping them on the shoulder to attract attention or touching them during conversation. However, what goes on in the family behind closed doors is another matter and physical as well as mental abuse occurs both to the women of the household and the maids.

We talk about this kind of abuse being cultural, but that doesn?t make it right. A lot of the reports I?ve read about abuse amongst the Maori and PIs does mention drink and drugs, which is what made me think.

I agree MB. [smiley=icon_wink.gif]

Although, perhaps the relatively high rate of drink and drugs amongst Maoris and Pacific Islanders is just a reflection of their increased likelihood of being involved in criminal activity. Despite the improvement in attitudes towards Maoris in recent years, I also get the feeling that Maoris still suffer from the long-standing prejudices and inequalities prevalent in NZ society. For instance, even now in the 21st century, they are a lot more likely to be poorly educated or born into 'problem' families.

Having said that, I've no doubt that drink and drugs make the problem considerably worse. The general problem, however, I suspect goes much deeper than that, and will probably take many years to resolve. [smiley=icon_confused.gif] [smiley=icon_sad.gif]


Tottefan.

Having said that, I've no doubt that drink and drugs make the problem considerably worse. The general problem, however, I suspect goes much deeper than that, and will probably take many years to resolve. [smiley=icon_confused.gif] [smiley=icon_sad.gif]

It's the knock-on effect. Research needs to be done to break the vicious circle that is perpetuating the problem. If only the younger people could be shown the error of their parents' ways, they might be able to continue their lives in a different mindset and even try to educate their parents. There again, the parents would need to want to break their habits and I'm not sure many of them really want to.

Off at a tangent now.....

......loss of innocence. Sad.