Read this if you were born before 1986.......

But violence in industrialised societies exploded after World War 2 MB - especially since the mid-1950s/early 1960s. Check the official stats and you'll see that crime has doubled every decade since 1955. Crime doesn't just explode overnight. [smiley=icon_confused.gif]

I blame the hippies of the 1960s - like so many people do in Britain at the moment. They invented this idea that you could sleep around without taking responsibility for your actions. I'm not saying that all people born in that era were like that, far from it, but they started off a new culture of irresponsibility, hedonism and selfishness. [smiley=icon_sad.gif] I've watched a few documentaries on the 1950s and 1960s recently, and in both, the 1960s was portrayed as a time of extreme social change. The programme ended in a nostalgic note by saying that the 1960s generation changed British society forever. [smiley=icon_neutral.gif]

Their actions, particularly as regards sexual conduct, has efffectively removed any previous taboos. Them, and the way they have brought up their children, has created an undreclass of young people which seems to get bigger and bigger each year. [smiley=icon_sad.gif]


Tottefan.

But violence in industrialised societies exploded after World War 2 MB - especially since the mid-1950s/early 1960s. ?Check the official stats and you'll see that crime has doubled every decade since 1955. ?Crime doesn't just explode overnight. ?[smiley=icon_confused.gif]: ?

I know crime is increasing with the passing of time. ?Is this down to the trend being passed on to the upcoming generations or partly down to the increased use of drink and drugs that heightens perpetrators? bravado or bloodlust for doing something utterly outrageous and mindless? ?Many of today?s criminals have no social conscience at all and are blind to the havoc they cause to others. ?Regarding stats, I?d be cautious in taking them as gospel:

From a previous post:

I?m going more on my memories of living through that time and how I felt with regard to my personal safety and that of those around me. ?It?s just a gut feeling I have that the bulk of the crimes of that period didn?t appear to be as totally abhorrent as the ones of today. ?True, they did happen now and then, but were seen for what they were, horrific and unacceptable and isolated incidents. ?Today these vicious crimes are one-a-penny and just tut tutted over. ?I believe people in the UK have become desensitised through over exposure to crime, both in real life and by way of entertainment. ?It?s a diet you can easily feed on every day. ? ?

I blame the hippies of the 1960s - like so many people do in Britain at the moment. ?They invented this idea that you could sleep around without taking responsibility for your actions. ?I'm not saying that all people born in that era were like that, far from it, but they started off a new culture of irresponsibility, hedonism and selfishness. ?[smiley=icon_sad.gif] ? I've watched a few documentaries on the 1950s and 1960s recently, and in both, the 1960s was portrayed as a time of extreme social change. ?The programme ended in a nostalgic note by saying that the 1960s generation changed British society forever. ?[smiley=icon_neutral.gif]

The hippies were only a minority of the population and I don?t think they can be held entirely responsible for the undoing of the UK. ?They did have some influence on the young people who were responsive to them and looking for a new trend to follow, but I can?t somehow link them, as supposed peacelovers, with the downright viciousness and nastiness of today?s crime. ?Something else has come into play since that time to introduce the murderous tendencies many people have today.

Their actions, particularly as regards sexual conduct, has efffectively removed any previous taboos. ?Them, and the way they have brought up their children, has created an undreclass of young people which seems to get bigger and bigger each year. ?[smiley=icon_sad.gif]

This may well be true to a certain extent, as there was no going back after the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s. ?Unfortunately it has gone some way to robbing today?s youngsters of their innocence and childhood, not to speak of spreading STDs around liberally. ?But I would still blame parents who allow their very young daughters to appear in public dolled up like an 18-year old with makeup, clothing that leaves nothing to the imagination, smoking and swearing like seasoned troupers. ?These are dangerous times and, although they see it as fun to act grown up, they just send out the wrong messages to the wrong people and land themselves in trouble they can?t handle because of their immaturity. ? Part of the responsibility must also go to the advertisers and shops that, through greed, target these girls and entice them to want to grow up before their time. What?s left for them when they do become adults? ?They will already have experienced most things a normal young adult would find out about at the proper time and end up quite world-weary. ?The step into adulthood should be a big adventure and full of uncharted territory to explore. ?How sad that they?ll probably find it all a big bore ? been there, done that and got 2 little kids and a dose of STD to prove it.

Tottefan.

No doubt if I was young instead of the age I am, I?d find today?s freedom liberating, but that doesn?t mean to say it?s for the best. ?I have to say I really fear for the future, the present is bad enough.

I know crime is increasing with the passing of time.

Not true. Crime was falling until the 1920s. You were also more likely to be a victim of crime in the 1800s than today. Historical evidence also suggests that violent crime was also at least 16 times more common in the Middle ages than today.

True, they did happen now and then, but were seen for what they were, horrific and unacceptable and isolated incidents.

In no period of British history has violent crime been what you would call isolated or unbelievably shocking. There were still an average of 230 murders EVERY year in thhe 1960s. However, I agree with your general statement about it being less of a problem then, but that fact was rapidly changing! [smiley=icon_confused.gif]

The hippies were only a minority of the population and I don?t think they can be held entirely responsible for the undoing of the UK.

They started a trend which continued, and got significantly worse, during the 1970s and 1980s. They got the ball rolling, so to speak, despite having responsible parents.

I also go by experience. I remember spending time at my nan's flat in the late 1980s. Even then it was a shi*****. People would p*** in the lifts and grafitti up the walls, and this was 20 years ago. Admittedly things have got quite a bit worse in that area since then, but she told me the other day that things deteriorated a bit in the 1960s and things went on from there. Now, hardly any of her generation are left, now being replaced by the next load of older/younger people who just aren't the same, according to her. She now lives with us by the way.

Recently, an 8 year old girl was hit by a car and lay injured at the side of the road for a long while. Not one person stopped to help her. [smiley=icon_frown.gif] Is this just a reflection of the general population?

I disagree that crime naturally becomes more prevalent over time. Until 60 or 70 years ago, this simply wasn't the case. In fact, the 1930-1960 period is sometimes referred to as a golden age by historians because it was a time when living conditions had improved, but crime/violence was also at its lowest level in human history. In many ways, we are only experiencing a return to pre 20th century crime levels, and still have some way to go yet till we return to the widespread violence of the Victorian era. Let's hope that this doesn't happen.


Tottefan.

I think I've contributed enough to this debate already. I think it's time for me to find something else to ramble on about, something hopefully a bit more interesting. [smiley=icon_eek.gif]

If I continue to annoy you with my stubbornness MB, I give you permission to give me a virtual slap around the face. [smiley=icon_biggrin.gif]

Aaarrgh! I?ve been working on a reply for ages now and you?ve thrown in the towel. Must admit the thread was turning into a debate that was going nowhere. I have so many ?emotions? about the subject that it?s difficult to put them all into actual words.

But before I take my leave of the thread I'll just slip this in?..

A colleague of hubster?s has just returned from a holiday back in the UK and, as always, there?s another example of how not to bring up children. Said colleague (Andy) went for a meal with his wife and they were sitting outdoors. A young kiddie nearby picked up a sizeable rock and threw it at Andy?s table barely missing him, but crashing onto the table. Upon seeing Andy?s vexation and hearing his request to control the child, the father made the comment ?What the hell are you complaining about, it didn?t hit you, did it??

Andy?s well-moderated (for him, anyway) retort was ?It might well have?. Dad then said ?For God?s sake let the lad alone, he?s only a kid. He?s not hurting anyone.? After a short while, junior has picked up another rock and is busy concentrating on whom next to impress with his fantastic bowling arm. Another guy got up and told Dad in no uncertain terms to keep control of his child, after which the whole family upped sticks and walked out, leaving their uneaten meal behind. Obviously the pressure got too much for them.

I?ve been working on a reply for ages now and you?ve thrown in the towel

Well, I think we've already covered everything really. Plus, I didn't want to seem like a complete saddo, who has nothing better to do with his time than debate the same topic over and over again on an emigration website. [smiley=icon_confused.gif] [smiley=icon_biggrin.gif]

Old day v modern day discussions always seems a bit of a pointless to me anyway. We live in the 21st century so we may as well live it to the full and enjoy ourselves as much as possible. There is absolutely no point in dwelling on the past. [smiley=icon_biggrin.gif]


Tottefan.

I must admit that I've changed my mind about the UK recently, and I now agree with everything Mother Bear has said. [smiley=icon_eek.gif] I guess recent events in my local area, involving drunken youths, has convinced me that MB's views are correct. [smiley=icon_confused.gif]

I suppose I find it hard to hate the UK because it is my birthplace. I, also, have just under 2 years to go before I am in a position to travel oversaes.l [smiley=icon_sad.gif]

Anyway, based on my recent experiences in the UK, I'd just like to retract my original posts, as I now agree wholeheartedly with everything MB said.


Tottefan.

That?s a big change of heart, Tottefan . I?d accepted that with me being the age group I am and you being the age group you are, we would see things differently as we?ve both grown up in very different times. What would appear normal behaviour to you wouldn?t necessarily appear so to me. It really horrifies me that soooo many people now take mind and mood-altering drugs and find it totally acceptable to do so. These drugs, apart from encouraging altered behaviour, also disguise what people are really like in their ?natural? state and I find this very disturbing. I don?t know who I?m dealing with any more.

In these times of better living conditions, it?s very sad that they feel the need to take drugs at all and aren?t experiencing life as it really is . I?m sure a lot of horrific crime happens because people are under the influence of these drugs which help to desensitise them to the consequences of what they?re doing. Drugs will give them the bravado to do things they might not ordinarily do. Drink, however, has been around for a long time, but it seems that more and more very young people are partaking now which is adding to the problem, as they just can?t handle it.

A lot of the impressions I hear come from other expats who?ve lived away from the UK for quite a while and then are shocked when they return and see how things have deteriorated. When you?re continually living in the mire, you may not see things from a different perspective, like we do, having lived with other cultures.

I?m off on my soapbox again so I?d better stand down before I spark off another battering. I'll quit while I'm ahead. [smiley=icon_wink.gif]

I agree with you about drink and drugs. Having never partaken in either myself, fortunately I've never experienced the damaging effects of them.

I also think that the main reason why I've never been popular amongst my own age group is because I have always refused to conform. I, for instance, despise drugs, drink and promiscuity - the 3 vices which many people my own age seem to get involved in. The problem is that I've never minded expressing my dislike for these things, however unpopular it has made me with my peers.

I?m off on my soapbox again so I?d better stand down before I spark off another battering. I'll quit while I'm ahead.

I can seem a bit opinionated sometimes [smiley=icon_confused.gif] , it's one of my many faults, I'm afraid. The good thing is that when I change my mind during a debate, I don't mind admitting that I was wrong. [smiley=icon_rolleyes.gif]


Tottefan.

I agree with you about drink and drugs. Having never partaken in either myself, fortunately I've never experienced the damaging effects of them. I feel that if something goes badly wrong with my body it would probably only be a sign of ageing or genuine illness and not because I?ve abused it in the past.
I also think that the main reason why I've never been popular amongst my own age group is because I have always refused to conform. Same here, not so much with drugs as they were only newly emerging in my youth, but definitely with regard to drink. I was always regarded as a party-pooper because I didn?t like to drink that much. It wasn?t that I was a goody-two-shoes, more that I just couldn?t hold it and it made me feel ill and would ruin my evening. Why make myself ill just to please others? At least I had the sense to stop and not continue just to fit in with others? idea of ?having fun?. I, for instance, despise drugs, drink and promiscuity - the 3 vices which many people my own age seem to get involved in. The problem is that I've never minded expressing my dislike for these things, however unpopular it has made me with my peers.

I can seem a bit opinionated sometimes [smiley=icon_confused.gif] , it's one of my many faults, I'm afraid. The good thing is that when I change my mind during a debate, I don't mind admitting that I was wrong. [smiley=icon_rolleyes.gif] An admirable trait and one which, to my mind, shows maturity and lack of arrogance.


Tottefan.